« Obama and Clinton at the Compassion Forum, April 13 2008 | Main | Note to Obama: Call Hillary’s Bluff »
ABC Democratic Debate - April 16, 2008
By Bill | April 16, 2008 | Email This Post
On April 16, 2008 ABC news hosted a debate between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, PA, six days before the Pennsylvania primaries. The moderators were Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos.
I’m liveblogging this as it unfolds. I don’t claim this represents every single word that the candidates said, but I think it gives a fair impression of the points they were trying to make. Where I can’t resist commenting my thoughts are clearly indicated by italics so you can take those parts with however many grains of salt you deem appropriate. My usual disclaimer: this is coming out in real-time, with minimal editing. I trust you’ll forgive any grammatical/punctuation/spelling mistakes.
Interesting debate tonight. If Obama hadn’t offered up the “bitter” speech recently, this would just be a formality. Clinton was about to lose, and that briefly let her off the ropes. I still think she loses, but if she lands a haymaker tonight, who knows?
Away we go.
Opening Statements: Obama addressed the “bitter” comment right off the bat in a veiled way, saying in his opening statement that he’s noticed the “frustration” among the Pennsylvania voters as he has toured the state. Clinton noted that they are meeting tonight in the city where “our founders” (”Founding Fathers,” Hillary, “Founding Fathers”) met to decide the course of our nation, and points out that neither she nor Obama were included in their plans. She promises to work to perfect the underlying promise of America.
- Gibson asks about their “disproportionate” appeal to disparate groups, and asks if they will agree with Cuomo’s suggestion that they will both pledge to take the second spot on the other’s ticket should they lose. The audience laughs. Obama takes up the gauntlet first, giving his usual canned answer that the decision of a running mate is premature. Clinton says she will “do everything I possibly can to make sure that one of us takes office” Sounds to me like she’s opening the door… smart of her, what with her probably losing the election. Obama would be foolish to accept her as a running mate, but that’s a different story. She might need to him to win, but I don’t believe he needs her, and given a choice he certainly doesn’t WANT her looking over his shoulder for four years.
- Gibson asks Obama about the “bitter” comment. Obama says “I can see how people were offended… it’s not the first time I’ve made a statement that was mangled up, and it won’t be the last.” What he meant to say was that “people are going through very difficult times” and that makes them “focus on things that are constant, like religion…. and on things like guns, where traditions have [been handed down] generation to generation.” He sees an opportunity “to break through that frustration, and that’s what our campaign is all about.” Clinton responds that she’s the granddaughter of a mill worker who attended church and that she “doesn’t believe my grandfather and my father… cling to religion” when they feel like Washington isn’t listening to them. “I just don’t believe that’s how people live their lives.” She goes on to say “I can see why people would be offended, taken aback, by the remarks.”
- Stephanopoulos asks Clinton about her statement to Bill Richardson that “Senator Obama can’t win” … does she believe that, or not? She responds that “Well, we have to beat John McCain…. he will be a formidable candidate” but that he has wrong ideas about America. Stephanopoulos asks again “do you think Senator Obama can win?” Clinton: “Yes, yes, yes… now, I think I can do a better job.” Stephanopoulos asks the reverse to Obama: do you think Senator Clinton can win? Obama: “Absolutely.” During his extended comments, Obama compares to the recent charges he’s elitist to the episode years ago where Hillary said something along the lines of “should I be at home baking cookies?” and saying that he knows that’s not who Hillary is, and she should know that the “bitter” comment does not reflect he is. He did a very nice job of reminding the world of Hillary’s gaffe without making it seem like he was attacking her, or leaving her room to get righteously indignant. Well played, Barack.
- Gibson asks Obama about a statement Jeremiah Wright made that Obama uninvited him from the announcement of his candidacy. Obama, looking ever so slightly annoyed, doesn’t really answer the question, but reiterates earlier statements about his love for the church rather than the pastor, and that Rev. Wright said offensive things which he denounced. Gibson asks Clinton about her statement that he would not have been her pastor, and that she would have removed herself from the church; Gibson notes the good work the church does, and asks if all 8,000 members should have quit the church. Clinton also looking annoyed says that she was responding to a personal question, and cites the fact that Wright’s first sermon after the 9/11 attacks denigrated America. Obama speaks back up rather lamely, IMHO and says he was unaware of the remakes as he “wasn’t in church that day” and then mentions Clinton’s own pastor’s support of Reverend Wright. Do I think Wright’s statements reflect Obama’s views? No. Do I think he cynically stuck around the church because of some local political advantage? Absolutely.
- Stephanopoulos asks Obama the stupid question where or not he believes Wright loves America as much as Obama does, and what he will do with the inflammatory clips from Wright are constantly replayed if he gets to be President. Obama dodges the first question, and says that the idea that “the American people will be distracted once again by comments made by someone made by someone associated with me” - “disowned the comments” - is not true. Stephanopoulos asks again if he thinks Wright is patriotic. Obama responds “this is someone who is a former Marine… I believe he loves this country.” Clinton chimes in that she believes it’s not just Reverend Wright, but the endorsement of Louis Farrakahn and an invitation to Hamas to put a message in the church bulletin.
- A video question asks Clinton how she can reconcile her campaign of honesty with her story of coming under sniper fire. She responds that she’s recently said some things that she knew she couldn’t reconcile with the story she had written in her book, and that she’s apologized for it and that it was a mistake. “On a few occasions I was unfortunately not as accurate as I have been in the past” but that she’s proud of her trip to Bosnia. She’s sorry that she said things that “didn’t jibe” with what she knew to be true. Sorry Hillary, what you just defined with that last sentence is more succinctly termed “a lie.”. “Not accurate” might apply to forgetting whether or not you left the house at 6pm or 6:30, but running for cover from snipers is something that you would tend to remember.
- A video clip from Nash McCabe asks Obama whether or not “you believe in the American flag…. All our service men and women wear one, I wonder why you don’t.” Groan. Not this again. Let me guess, next will be a question about Obama in the tribal outfit. Obama’s response: “I revere the American flag… there’s no other country in which my story is even possible…. What I’ve tried to do is show my patriotism [by his treatment of veterans, by ending the war in Iraq, by ending economic inequities].”
- Stephanopoulos asks Obama about his relationship with Bill Ayers, a member of the Weather Underground who bombed government buildings in the 1970s. Obama says that “this is a guy who lives in my neighborhood” and whether or not that individual carried out bombings “forty years ago when I was eight years old” is not reflective of his views. Clinton said that Obama’s statement is okay as far as it goes, but that even though “Obama is a good man and I respect him” that this is an issue people will be raising in the general election. She suggests that Republicans apologize for the Bush/Chaney years, drawing laughter from the audience. She says that she’s the best candidate to withstand Republican attacks. Obama responds that on the Weather Underground issue, Bill Clinton pardoned two of the members of the organization himself. I don’t know that I agree with Obama’s dismissal of the issue, but from a tactical point of view I think he deflected it very well.
- Mandy Garber asks whether or not either of the candidates have a real plan to exit Iraq, or if they’re just posturing. Gibson asks Clinton if she intends to withdraw the troops even in the face of advice from the military that such an action would be disastrous. Clinton responds “Yes,” and cites civilian control of the military. She goes on to explain that she believes it’s in the best interests of the both Iraq and America, and promises to ask her military advisers to devise a plan that will allow her to begin to withdraw troops within sixty days. “I think it’s important that this decision is made and I intend to make it.” Gibson asks Clinton if she’s saying “I know better” than the military commanders. Clinton responds no, but that what she does know is that no one can predict. Clinton believes that exiting Iraq will allow us to focus more on other problems facing us. If we stay in Iraq, Clinton believes that the Iraqi government will never take responsibility for their country, our military will be stretched thin, and we cannot regain our global leadership role. Obama concurs, saying “the commander in chief [sets the mission], not the generals” and criticizes President Bush for using the military’s advice as an excuse to stay. “Ultimately, the buck stops with me as commander in chief.” I’ll just say that I think both of them are being extremely shortsighted about the mess we’ll leave behind in Iraq if we just pick up and leave, and I’ll stop there.
- Stephanopoulos asks Obama if America should extend an old cold war policy and treat an Iranian attack on Israel as if it’s an attack on the United States. Obama responds that our first goal should be to keep nuclear weapons out of Iranian hands and that he will directly engage them about a whole list of issues, including terrorism. He goes on to say that they need to understand he would take no option off the table in responding to an attack on one of our Allies. Clinton says “of course” that she would make it clear to Iran that an attack on Israel would “incur massive retaliation” from the United States. She says not only that, but that we should extend an umbrella of deterrence beyond Israel. She suggests “enlisting the region” in a security agreement vis-a-vis Iran, offering other countries in the region a defense agreement with the United States if they “forswear” the acquisition of nuclear weapons.
- Stephanopoulos asks Clinton about a McCain statement that both Democratic candidates will raise everyone’s taxes, and asks Clinton if she will pledge not to raise taxes on people making under $200,000 and whether or not she will insist on rolling back the Bush tax cuts if the economy is bad a year from now. Clinton responds that she will raise taxes on everyone making over $250,000, believing that it will not hurt the economy. She affirms that she will roll back the Bush tax cuts and goes on to pledge that she absolutely will not raise taxes on the middle class. Obama says not only will he not raise middle class taxes, but that he will offer tax relief to the middle class.
- Gibson asks Obama about his support for an increase in the capital gains tax in light of data that every recent time the tax rate has been lowered revenues have gone up. Obama responds that he has said he will look at raising the capital gains rate “in the interest of fairness” and mentions the Warren Bufett story, without naming him, of extremely wealthy people being in a lower tax bracket than their secretaries. Asked again about the revenue increase in the face of a tax cut, Obama responds that “it might happen or it might not… it depends on what is happening on Wall Street.” Clinton says we need to get back to an economy “that works for everyone,” citing the 1990’s as an example. She suggests investing in green energy as a way to create jobs, and endorses “good union jobs with a good wage.” Clinton goes on to say we need more relief for the housing crisis and we need to figure out what we should invest in as a country. Asked if she would raise the capital gains tax, she says she certainly wouldn’t raise it above what it was during her husband’s administration, if she did it at all. My personal portfolio is… yes, let me check… damn near nonexistent, so I stand nothing to gain or lose, but it seems to me investment is what’s driven every economic boom in my lifetime. It seems foolish to give the folks with money less of an incentive to give American industry the funds to compete with the rest of the world.
- Gibson, noting that it’s the anniversary of the shootings at Virginia Tech, asks the candidates about gun control, suggesting that both candidates are softening their positions on gun control for the purposes of the campaign. Clinton says that our police are outgunned by criminals, and suggests that 80% of the guns used in crimes are in the hands of the culprits illegally, and says making federal information available to local law enforcement will help the problem. I’m confused here. There’s a registry of who owns guns illegally? Gibson asks Obama about the DC law that bans private ownership of certain types of guns. Obama says he’s not terribly familiar with the exact law in question, but that “as a general principle” people have the right to gun ownership, however that doesn’t mean that state and local governments can’t “constrain that right.” He goes on to talk about the tradition of hunting. Obama says “I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns” but thinks we can take measures about the problems of guns on the streets. Stephanopoulos asks Clinton if she, as a homeowner of Washington DC, supports the ban. Clinton says she supports the ability of local governments to protect their citizens. Asked again whether or not she thinks the ban is Constitutional, she responds that she thinks a wholesale ban might be found unconstitutional but she doesn’t know the facts. She goes on to again say that different restrictions might be appropriate for different locations. So, Clinton doesn’t believe that abortion, which she views as a Constitutional right, shouldn’t be subject to local control, but the rights of the Second Amendment should be? Whatever side of the issue you’re on, that’s just inconsistent.
- Stephanopoulos asks Obama’s statement that affirmative action ought to apply to poor white children, and not to affluent black children. Obama responds that colleges ought to be able to take into account a persons history when making admission decisions, “I still believe in affirmative action” as a means of overcoming inequities, but it can’t be a quota system and needs to apply to all people locked out of opportunity. Clinton says we need “affirmative action generally” to apply to all disadvantaged people. Sorry, both of you are wrong… affirmative action is legalized discrimination and every bit as immoral as the problem it was designed to correct.
- Gibson: “What are you going to do about gas prices?” Clinton suggests that we apply a windfall profits tax on oil and gas companies and put the money back into highway programs Which doesn’t lower gas prices, does it? And that long term we must need to develop alternate energy policy. Obama suggests that we apply the windfall profits tax and investigate price gouging, and that long term we must increase fuel efficiency on cars, ultimately reducing demand for gasoline. Obama suggests a “Manhattan project” to develop alternate energy sources.
- Stephanopoulos: Senator Clinton, you’ve said you believe in using former Presidents. How would you use George W. Bush? Clinton: I’m going to have to put some thought into that. Laughter. Obama: “I’m more likely to ask advice of the current President’s father… I don’t believe Democrats have a monopoly on good ideas.”
- Final question: how are they each going to convince convention delegates that they’re the right candidate? Clinton says she will tackle the problems that have been waiting for a champion in the White House. “I’m ready to be the commander in chief… I will turn this economy around, we will get back to shared prosperity…. You know where I stand, you know that I will fight for you, and together we will take back our country.” Obama: “Our nation is at war, our planet is in peril, our economy is in shambles, and our people have lost faith in their government…. [When I ran] the bet I was making was a bet on the American people…. Change does not happen from the top down, it happens from the bottom up…. My bet’s paid off…. My point to the superdelegates will be… we’ve got to [form a new political alliance in this country.]”
That’s it. Summary/Conclusions:
Interesting night. It was arguably the most substantive, considered debate of the season - which may not be saying much, but there you have it. Hillary didn’t go after Obama, perhaps having seen the backlash of her recent attacks in falling poll numbers this week. Obama didn’t go for the finishing move, either. Both candidates seemed very serious; perhaps this was weariness after the grueling campaign, but I’d like to think they finally determined amongst themselves to give us a little better tonight. Regardless, it was a very good hour and a half.
Winner: Obama. He deflected several issues - the Weather Underground supporter, Reverend Wright, the “bitter” comment, getting through them and right on through to making the points he wanted to make. Clinton also did well - if she’d been this on her game the whole time, she would have had the nomination months ago - but this debate was really about America wanting one last sanity check on Obama as a candidate, and he delivered.
Pennsylvania numbers come in next Tuesday night. After that, on to the conventions. I hope you join me for them.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:14 am
One thing. You have it, as many people do, very wrong on Affrimative Action. The purpose of Affrimative Action is to make sure that FULLY QUALIFIED people are not discriminated against in getting positions.
In fact another mistatement is that African Americans have benefited most from Afrimative Action. Not true. White women have benefited the most.
Please be sure to research your facts before making such statements.
April 17th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Terrible journalism–both candidates seemed fed up with having to answer the same DUMB ASS questions over and over and over again.
And they both have the right to be fed up, ABC Moderators should be ashamed of themselves for waiting an hour before getting to the real issues.
April 17th, 2008 at 9:16 am
L-Mani is stating the very well-intentioned ideas behind affirmative action. I don’t know how you can say that it makes a level playing field for “fully qualified” people. It lowers the requirements for entering the playing field for some. I have NO problem with the best candidate getting the job, no matter their race or gender. This is NOT what affirmative action has done and that is a shame.
In other news I heard the distinct sounds of a sinking ship: the SS Clinton is going down.
April 17th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Hi L-Mani… I think you may have misread my comments on affirmative action. I never suggested who the primary beneficiaries of the programs are. I only said that using discrimination to fight discrimination is a poor approach. Whether the advantage is given to one particular group or another is entirely beside the point.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:35 am
“Pennsylvania numbers come in next Tuesday night. After that, on to the conventions.” You dismiss 9 states with 345 delegates up for grabs? Look, even if Clinton took all 188 delegates, she’d only be 60 delegates ahead of Obama. He’s 122 ahead now. She needs 527 to win and he heeds 405.
Good blog site. Thanks for the info, opinion and opportunity to respond.